On February 16, 1964, the Beatles made their second historical appearance on the Ed Sullivan Show. The broadcast from Miami Beach, Florida featured two boxers in the audience, Sonny Liston and Joe Lewis (a menu from "Beatles On Ed Sullivan" DVD is pictured below). This marked the beginning of a long running connection between the Beatles and Boxers. While the earlier connections were obviously tied to promotional gimmicks, the later ones often seemed to be tied to the concept of "taking a dive" or losing a fight on purpose and deceiving the public in order to make more money for organized crime.
Sonny Liston intersected with the Beatles again three years later on the cover of Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band. Like many people on that album cover, Liston's life was a tragic one full of run-ins with the law, ties to organized crime, and allegations of boxing fraud (after his second loss to Muhammed Ali, fellow fighter George Chuvalo was quoted as saying, "It was a phoney.") Several other prominent boxers agreed that Liston took a dive for the mob. Liston went on to do a bit of acting, including a small part in the Monkees movie "Head" where Davy Jones was supposed to take a dive for the mob. Liston died of suspicious causes sometime between December 30, 1970 and January 5, 1971. The official cause was heroin overdose, but his aversion to needles and the lack of related paraphernalia at the scene caused many to question the accuracy of the police findings.
The Beatles also met Muhammad Ali (then Cassius Clay) during their first U.S. visit. They participated in a mutually beneficial photo op at the boxer's training camp on February 18, 1964. The Beatles apparently overruled Brian Epstein by their participation in this event. Ali was one of the guests when John and Yoko co-hosted the Mike Douglas show.
There is a boxing monster who gets an exploding cigar in "Yellow Submarine."
Another boxer, Sugar Ray Robinson made a cameo appearance in the movie "Candy," co-written by Terry Southern and starring Ringo Starr.
Ringo's next solo feature film, "The Magic Christian," featured a boxing scene that brought a whole new meaning to the expression taking a dive. The scene in the movie goes by quickly and strangely, but Terry Southern's novel commits several paragraphs to describing the boxing champ as a national hero who, like everyone else, had his price. Two million dollars was enough to convince the champ to throw the fight in "a gay or effeminate manner." Even his challenger, the rough tough Tex Powell was paid to win the fight in the "most flamboyantly homosexual manner possible."
Paul McCartney recruited yet another boxer, John Conteh, for the cover of "Band on the Run." In 1974, Paul honored Conteh by appearing on an episode of "This Is Your Life" dedicated to the boxer.
Paul's song "Average Person" from "Pipes of Peace" not only features a verse about a fireman who likes to keep his engine clean, but also a verse dedicated to a boxer.
Well I Bumped Into A Man Who'd Been A Boxer
Asked Him What Had Been His Greatest Night
He Looked Into The Corners Of His Memory
Searching For A Picture Of The Fight
But He Said He Always Had A Feeling
That He Lacked A Little Extra Height
(Could Have Used A Little Extra Height)
Yes Mate, You Heard Right
He Always Had A Feeling That He Might Have Lacked A Little Height
Ironically Paul himself was accused of gaining a little extra height in late 1966.
Finally "Magical Mystery Tour" had its premier on Boxing Day. The holiday where gifts are given to the less fortunate was also mentioned in the movie "Give My Regards To Broad Street." I realize that Boxing Day has nothing to do with the sport of Boxing. Celebrated in several countries, the holiday seems to be tied to providing workers and the lower class with bonus gifts after Christmas. While the charitable tradition seems to benefit those with fewer financial resources, some claim that it is also ploy to maintain the distinction between the economic classes. When I was in school studying cultural traditions I was told that Boxing Day was the holiday when the classes would reverse roles: the poor would receive gifts of the rich, workers would be the bosses of their employers, and a Canadian policeman would become the leader of the world's greatest band.
61 comments:
Thanks for crediting me, Taf. Glad to have inspired somebody...
Regarding the movie Candy...I've never seen it, and it's NOT available through Netflix (those bastards!). I just read about it though, and determined that I NEED to see it.
In my reading, I noticed that Candy also stars the Pepper-cover-appearing Marlon Brando, as well as the Band On the Run-cover-appearing James Coburn.
Coburn was also very good friends with Bruce Lee. In fact, when Bruce Lee died(?) on July 20, 1973, Coburn was a paUllbearer. Lee's death, incidentally, was five months prior to the release of Band On the Run, which features another Lee on it's cover...Christopher Lee, who's a whole 'nother story.
I think I have some research to do...
P(D)enny La(i)ne
Taful, that's hilarious! Was it two weeks ago that JGuildersleeve(?) and I were satirizing PID using the boxing theme as an example? Apparently, what began as satire has become another thread. ("Ali lies and jests, still a PIDer hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest").
Cool Post Cheers
I think I am the only person on record who admits to liking the movie "Candy" (that's C and Y). It has a great soundtrack song by the Byrds (Child of the Universe). Marlon Brando is a guru. Colburn is a famous brain surgeon. But, it also has Walter Matthau, Richard Burton and of course, Ringo. The best of all is John Aston in a dual role as T.N. and Jack Christian. Yeah, all kinds of stuff in there. Oh yeah, and it was written by Buck Henry.
anonymous said:
"Taful, that's hilarious! Was it two weeks ago that JGuildersleeve(?) and I were satirizing PID using the boxing theme as an example? Apparently, what began as satire has become another thread. ("Ali lies and jests, still a PIDer hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest")."
Nobody is suggesting that this boxing theme is an indication that Paul is DEAD. My post on NIR was simply a connecting of SEVERAL boxing related dots that became apparent to me while watching HEAD, and the Bee Gee Sgt Pepper movie back to back. I'm not sure what it means, exactly, but at a certain point, a preponderance of similar "coincidences" become more than coincidences, and indicate a deliberate pattern.
You can choose to create and burn straw men all you want (which is what you're doing when you say "a PIDer hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest"), but that doesn't change the fact that there is an insane amount of DELIBERATELY INSERTED boxing imagery in music, movies, and cover art associated with Beatle and Beatle related projects. Further, it's not just any old random boxing imagery - it's dishonest, criminal, bamboozling-the-public boxing imagery.
And again, there's more than enough of this boxing imagery for a reasonable person to assume that it's NOT by coincidence. For you to pretend otherwise, and in such a smarmy manner, tells me that you're either not prepared to approach this in a reasonable manner, or that your a disinfo agent.
P(D)enny La(i)ne
Penny Lane, you missed the point I was making. A few weeks ago, a skeptic pointed out that it was easy to make connections to the Beatles with practically every topic, and he used boxing as an example. The light hearted discussion then went in that direction, and I pointed out that MMT was on Boxing Day, etc., and Taful joined in. Now I see that, in unrelated threads, people such as yourself have taken to the boxing theme seriously, which struck me as funny.
Anonymous said:
"Penny Lane, you missed the point I was making. A few weeks ago, a skeptic pointed out that it was easy to make connections to the Beatles with practically every topic, and he used boxing as an example. The light hearted discussion then went in that direction, and I pointed out that MMT was on Boxing Day, etc., and Taful joined in. Now I see that, in unrelated threads, people such as yourself have taken to the boxing theme seriously, which struck me as funny."
Well, I'm not sure that this is an aknowledgement that the boxing theme may actually have some sea legs, but I'll take it as such and move on.
Thanks for the clarification.
P(D)enny
Free association is easy. It doesn't mean one shouldn't be cautious when assigning some meaningful link to the connections. One could do the same with, say, birds.
Paul sang of the Blackbird, "And Your Bird Can Sing," and of course "This Bird has Flown." The British slag for girls was "birds," hence the subtitle. Paul later wrote "Bluebird" and then you have "Flying" which could refer to birds. There are probably birdlike characters in Yellow Submarine. The Byrds took the concept of their name from the misspelled "Beat-les," and there are connections with the Byrds to Manson and to the Monkees. Everyone in 60s showbiz was connected at some level.
And I forgot to mention the obvious fact that Paul formed "Wings," which could not be coincidental.
"Free association is easy. It doesn't mean one shouldn't be cautious when assigning some meaningful link to the connections. One could do the same with, say, birds."
Right, but the boxing connections are more than just boxing connections. As I (and Taf) have pointed out, they are all boxing connections that have to do with bamboozling, or hoodwinking the unsuspecting into believing that something is real, when it is, in fact, a put-on.
That is why your camparison to birds connections is meaningless, and again, it seems like your're building straw men for the specific purpose of confusing the issue.
Which is it? Do you not get that the birds comparison is apples and oranges, or are you intentionally trying to confuse the issue?
Yes, in any conspiracy theory or mystical question, the skeptics will always have an advantage. That doesn't mean they are always right, but they serve an essential role in helping to sort out the wheat from the chaff.
I think it is a fact that there are more references to boxing in Beatles History than any other sport. The question of what that means is open to speculation and the most likely answer in things like that is usually random chance.
That Marmalade reference that I got from a forum the other day yielded all kinds of connections and coincidences in a thread at NIR. The people making the connections didn't try to draw big conclusions, but they pointed out more facts than I expected them to find.
One more boxing thing. Sonny Liston was right on one of the two spots on which the Beatles decided to put a vertical mirror for the Official Anthology version of the "A Day In the Life" video.
I just got an email from Paul Simon. He is working on a new version of "The Boxer" and wants to know how to pronounce the word "PIDer."
Not to change the subject...... (or not),
I can't see or hear the phrase "takin' a dive.", without thinking of that E.L.O. song, where the girls go, "I'm takin', a DIVE!"
What song is that?
Vince.
"Not to change the subject...... (or not),
I can't see or hear the phrase "takin' a dive.", without thinking of that E.L.O. song, where the girls go, "I'm takin', a DIVE!"
What song is that?
Vince."
Living Thing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yjb1FgSiWkM
Sailin' away on the crest of a wave
It's like magic
Oh rollin' and ridin',slippin' & sliding
It's magic
CHORUS
And you, and your sweet desire,
You took me, ohhh higher and higher baby,
It's a livin' thing,
It's a terrible thing to lose
It's a given thing
What a terrible thing to lose.
Making believe this is what you've conceived
From your worst day, I'm takin a dive
Oh moving in line when you look back in time
To the first day, I'm taken I'm taken
And you and your sweet desire,
you took me ohh, higher and higher baby
It's a living thing,
It's a terrible thing to lose,
It's a given thing
What a terrible thing to lose
I'm takin a dive. Off the stage. Hey!!
Takin' a dive 'cos you can't halt the slide
Floating downstream, I'm takin a dive
Ah so let her go don't start spoiling the show
It's a bad dream, I'm takin' , I'm takin'
And you and your sweet desire
Don't you do it ,
You took me ohh higher and higher baby
It's a livin' thing,
It's a terrible thing to lose
It's a given thing
What a terrible thing to lose.(x2) I'm taking a dive,dive,dive,dive,dive off the slide,slide,slide,slide,slide oh yah,yah,yah,yah,yah off the slide,slide,slide.
Enjoy,
P(D)enny
Well, well, well.
That can take a different meaning, when applied to the world of PID.....
maybe.
Vince.
You Can Be Anyone This Time Around
Timothy Leary
Penny Laine, I re-read Taful's post to see whether there were an extraordinarly large number of Beatle boxing references in context of taking a "dive" or, reinterpreted for PID, "fooling the public" or "Paul Died or was Replaced." He lists just two. 1) Sonny Liston, who took a dive (hello? boxing? name a boxer that hasn't been accused of diving),and whose image is on the cover of Pepper. The choice to include Liston didn't have to be a reference to that part of his history. He was a major boxer and that's why he had a wax figure. We all know there are lots of Pepper characters, all of whom are known for different things, depending on how you want to finesse them. 2). A character in the Magic Christian written by Terry Souther. In my estimation, these two tidbits don't dovetail with your statement that there is an "insane" amount of boxing imagery, and
"it's not just any old random boxing imagery - it's dishonest, criminal, bamboozling-the-public boxing imagery."
Ok, but you obviously haven't read MY post from NIR (the one Taf cited), which includes more boxing references.
Here it is:
****
"I think the refrain from THE BOXER is LIE LIE LIE.
In the past month, I've watched HEAD (Monkeys movie) and the Bee Gee/Frampton Sgt. Pepper movie.
BOTH movies had strange boxing moments.
HEAD devoted an entire scene to Davy as a BOXER, CHOOSING his opponent and throwing a fight for the mob.
EDIT: Davey chooses SONNY LISTON as his opponent.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nT8bDoxbm8k
Meanwhile, in the Pepper movie, there's a scene with Alice Cooper singing BECAUSE. In the scene, Cooper plays a media mogul who is using T.V. to brainwash people into an Army to take over the world. Of course, he is watching a BOXING match on tv as he's brainwashing the people.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frqQ6rPmnIc
There's another scene that I can't find on youtube, of Mean Mister Mustard's lackey driving a van. Yet again, inexplicably, the inside of the van is plastered with photos of BOXERS.
This all led me to read about Sonny Liston:
"Liston did not box again that year, and in 1964, he met a young contender named Cassius Clay on the evening of February 25 in Miami, Florida. Liston lost his title when he quit in his corner before the start of the seventh round, claiming he had hurt his shoulder. Some believed the fight was fixed, and doubt whether Liston's shoulder injury was real.
On May 25, 1965, Liston would encounter Clay again, now known as Muhammad Ali. The bout was originally scheduled for Boston, Massachusetts, but Ali, a week before the fight, was hospitalized with a hernia. The rescheduled match was in the small town of Lewiston, Maine.
Less than two minutes into the fight, it was over. While he was pulling away from Liston, Ali hit Liston with a soft punch and Liston, who had never been knocked off his feet, went down. In the total shambles that followed, referee Jersey Joe Walcott never counted over Liston and never made Ali go to a neutral corner as Ali yelled hysterically at Liston. The photograph of the conclusion of this fight is one of the most heavily promoted photos in the history of the media, and was even chosen as the cover of the Sports Illustrated special issue, "The Century's Greatest Sports Photos".
George Chuvalo, who sat in the fourth row at ringside and later fought Ali twice, commented, "It was A PHONEY." Floyd Patterson also said he did not believe the fight was on the level, as did former heavyweight champions Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney, and Joe Louis. [2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonny_Liston
LIE LIE LIE."
****
As you said:
"Sonny Liston, who took a dive (hello? boxing? name a boxer that hasn't been accused of diving)"
Which is YET ANOTHER straw man. Here, you're citing your subjective opinion about all boxers vs. the opinions of people who were more or less directly involved in the actual case that is relevant; i.e. THE SONNY LISTON FIGHT.
"George Chuvalo, who sat in the fourth row at ringside and later fought Ali twice, commented, "It was A PHONEY." Floyd Patterson also said he did not believe the fight was on the level, as did former heavyweight champions Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney, and Joe Louis. [2]"
Again, if you really don't see the faults in your analogies, then I'm going to find it increasingly less worth my time to debate you.
And, you also failed to refute my assertion that your birds comparison is faulty as well...
P(D)enny
What is the freaking deal with people who find the suitcases just disappearing?
65if, and now GFA/0C/JB33 seems to held to his word and left for good.
Is that "boxing monster" from Yellow Submarine actually a boxing hippopotamus?
Doesn't an exploding cigar indicate that THE JOKE IS ON THE HIPPO?
Wasn't Paul the hippo in the I Am The Walrus scene from MMT?
"expert textpert, choking smokers
don't you think the joker laughs at you?"
P(D)enny
Indeed don't forget the ever Charming Billy Shears will be pounding his old beat soon when he goes back to Canada 20th July
*Plus in the press release, he claims to speek foreign French
Paulie Is Naughty!
*Fluent French, I do beg pardon!
No time to rebut all that now, but I will soon. "The Boxer" is by Paul Simon. What does that have to do with Paul McCartney? Head was written in part by Jack Nicholson and has nothing to do with the Beatles either. Wouldn't that point to Davy Jones being a replacement?
Funny, I just listened to John's demo of "I'm The Greatest"... (Ali's catchprase)
"Let me introduce to you
The one and only Billy Shears"
-Steve
The black bird is a symbol of death (black = death). To take one's "broken wings and learn to fly" refers to Faul in his new role. Like the Phoenix, the bird is reborn from the ashes ("you were only waiting for this moment to arise"). His band Wings confirms this notion, because he'd learned to fly, and the broken wings were now full fledged Wings. Paul often made the "W" symbol with both hands (the Wings logo), and W is in fact the merging of two U's, thus "double u" or "double you," meaning two versions of Paul. Yet he later sings "I'm a bluebird," hinting that he is no longer the original blackbird. JCharles
Anonymous wrote:
The Boxer" is by Paul Simon. What does that have to do with Paul McCartney? Head was written in part by Jack Nicholson and has nothing to do with the Beatles either.
There is a whole segment of the PID/PWR population who looks at songs by other artists and suggests that they are about the Beatles mystery. As with any speculative endeavor, there are many preposterous suggestions, but there are some that may not be so crazy. Pink Floyd spent some time with the Beatles. The are numerous Beatles/Monkees connections (just watch the promo for "A Day in the Life"). Paul Simon, performed with McCartney and George Harrison. In the early 1970s there were some people suggesting that Bob Dylan's "Day of the Locusts" was about a meeting on the Beatles Greek Island of Leso (Leslo).
When you consider that the starting point of this whole investigation is a bit outlandish, the connections that some people are making aren't really that far from the tree.
Mark Twain said, "Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities. Truth isn't."
Hey JCharles,
Always good to hear from you. I will let you know when your "Double U" theory hits the forums. But as I'm sure you know, these mental gymnastics require a bit of intelligence. I think it is fair to say that to some degree this kind of reasoning exists not only in all conspiracy theories, but also in any religious or anti-religious belief system.
Anonymous said:
"No time to rebut all that now, but I will soon. "The Boxer" is by Paul Simon. What does that have to do with Paul McCartney?"
Response:
It's possible that Paul Simon was writing a song observing the strange situation surrounding Paul and the Beatles in 67 and 68, which is when a change (if one took place) occurred. Although I'm not staking my reputation on this aspect of it, I do find several of the lines of the song of potential interest to this line of thinking.
Besides, I made several other more important points that you've still not addressed.
Anonymous also said:
"Head was written in part by Jack Nicholson and has nothing to do with the Beatles either. Wouldn't that point to Davy Jones being a replacement?"
Response:
You conveniently left out the fact that the boxer in HEAD is SONNY FREAKING LISTON. THAT is what connects it to The Beatles. Well, that and the fact that it's generally understood (by anyone NOT pretending to NOT understand in order to cause trouble) that the Monkees were a very unsubtle attempt to copy and cash in on the Beatles; a four piece rock band, with each of the members assuming a particular, distinct personae, while finding themselves in very "quirky" situations, a la Hard Day's Night and Help. Not to mention that most of the "music video" bits from the show also strongly resembled the Beatles avant garde, Euro new wavish promo clips that began in 1966 (Paperback Writer, Rain, Penny Lane, Strawberry Fields, etc).
Further, the Monkees and Beatles were friends, or at least good enough acquaintances for them to be hanging around the video shoot for A Day In The Life and the All You Need Is Love worldwide satellite feed.
I mean, really -- are you seriously pretending that you don't think there's a connection between the Beatles and the Monkees????
P(D)enny
Hiya, Taful. I'm pleased to see that your dedication and fair mindedness has made your blog the best middle ground for all parties, as well as the most entertaining and informative venue for all things PID. As for the pattern-making tendency of the human mind, I agree that it plays a role in all discovery. It is both our greatest asset and worst liability, as the history of science attests. Ferreting out which connections are genuine and which are illusory (with respect to both the physical and cognitive world) has been the preoccupation of theologians, artists, philosophers and scientists (all disciplines being different facets of the same search) from the dawn of civilization. "The ability to see relationships where none seem to exist is the basis of all creative thought." That all sounded a bit weighty, so I'll just say 'Keep up the good work' and pray the "double u" clue doesn't enter the PID lexicon. JCharles
When you consider that the starting point of this whole investigation is a bit outlandish, the connections that some people are making aren't really that far from the tree.
Huzzah for 'pataphysics!!
Sorry guys!
Vince again.
I was listening to Alex Jones this morning, and his guest made a few comments on the use of the BIG W in elite 'rituals', and.... oh, man, I shoulda paid more attention to it..
You can hear it replayed on his site:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/
Something like V=6, and a double V=W-66.... Oh, man, I don't remember the whole thing, but he alluded to George Bush using a big W banner when he was up for re-election...... something EVIL!
I know it must sound stupid (especially fans of "It's A Mad Mad Mad Mad Wold", but I'm tellin' ya', THEY WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT IT!
Yeah, that's why WWW (World Wide Web) is supposed to be code for 666--the Beast is the Internet and you've all taken his "number" by interacting digitally rather than spiritually. Isn't the IAAP briefcase adventure a remake of Mad Mad Mad Mad world?
"D'oh"
Mark Twain also said: “A good shit is highly under rated!”
I wonder what phoney will make of that?
For me, this has never been about PID, but rather the Beatles' occult doings. The PID hoax is part of the mystery, but one that I consider to be a very intentional diversion.
The Beatles' proximity to characters like Roman Polanski, Terry Melcher, and Kenneth Anger is the important thing here. These are some mighty unsavory people, and their influence on the Beatles bears close inspection. We may not like what we find, but history is history.
P(D)enny,
Who's the real disinfo agent here? The boxing thread here was started as a joke to show how you could trick PID conspiracy fans into beleiving anything and make them look foolish. This was CLEARLY stated and yet you took it and ran with it on NIR. You could be a PIA-er trying to make NIR look bad for all we know.
Terry Melcher is an "unsavory person"? Please explain.
Terry Melcher was involved with the Process Church, and was a sponsor of Charlie Manson. I'd say that passes for unsavory.
"For me, this has never been about PID, but rather the Beatles' occult doings. The PID hoax is part of the mystery, but one that I consider to be a very intentional diversion.
The Beatles' proximity to characters like Roman Polanski, Terry Melcher, and Kenneth Anger is the important thing here. These are some mighty unsavory people, and their influence on the Beatles bears close inspection. We may not like what we find, but history is history."
Whoever you are, thank you for that.
I completely agree and, much more importantly, your statements align with historical fact.
Long before I was aware of most of the details connected to this inquiry, I would reply to younger people's questions about "The Sixties" by saying that there was a palpable and dark shift which began (for me) around the spring of '67. We all know how much had changed by the latter part of '69.
The nature and anatomy of that change is what I'm trying to comprehend.
I believe that the phenomenon of the Beatles was employed as a social engineering fulcrum.
If that's true, what goes on at this blog would be far from idle speculation, and I add my appreciation for Taf's dedication and fair mindedness to that of a previous comment.
We should never forget May Pang's story about John going off one night, trashing an apartment while screaming that it was all Roman Polanski's fault.
Out of all this, I hope to find out just what his fault was.
'...I'll just say 'Keep up the good work' and pray the "double u" clue doesn't enter the PID lexicon. J Charles'
I wouldn't be surprised if a thread soon appears on NIR with lots of 'of course, it's so obvious' responses to it. It certainly would if you'd posted that ingenious theory anonymously.
Anonymous said:
"P(D)enny,
Who's the real disinfo agent here? The boxing thread here was started as a joke to show how you could trick PID conspiracy fans into beleiving anything and make them look foolish. This was CLEARLY stated and yet you took it and ran with it on NIR. You could be a PIA-er trying to make NIR look bad for all we know."
Oh dear.
First off, where, exactly, in "The boxing thread here", was it "CLEARLY stated" that "the boxing thread was a joke?
Maybe I'm missing something, but Taf's post seems to be taking the boxing connection at least somewhat seriously.
Next,
If you'd have read everything that I've posted so far, you'd understand exactly how I came to post what I posted, and that I didn't take anything from a previous thread "and run with it."
I'll mention my inspiration again, though:
"In the past month, I've watched HEAD (Monkeys movie) and the Bee Gee/Frampton Sgt. Pepper movie...
...BOTH movies had strange boxing moments...
...This all led me to read about Sonny Liston."
After all of that, I did a search on NIR for The Boxer, and came up with a few hits. Of those hits, (none of which espoused a real "theory", incidentally, I chose to respond to a post by Iameye, where he was simply posting the lyrics to The Boxer and hilighting some the verses that he found meaningful to PID/PWR. I used THAT, and my own research that was inspired by viewing Head and Sgt Pepper as the the jumping off point for MY post.
Please note at this point, that I could have simply started my own thread, but I didn't. I took the time to do a search and attached my thoughts to what I believed was the only boxing thread on NIR.
Also note, that I didn't ask Taf to write his own "inspired by" post either (although I was happy that he did). All I did, was to respond to a post on NIR with some new information and connections. That NIR thread really didn't go anywhere either. In fact, it kind of died a pretty quick death, and I did nothing to push the thread, or to promote it in any way that would indicate that I was someone who had an agenda to push.
Further, my post didn't attempt to steer anyone in either a PID direction, OR a PWR direction. I was simply pointing out that there are several boxing references that can be either directly, or tangentially connected to Paul and the Beatles, and that many of the connections had a somewhat sinister air about them.
My response to your implicit accusation that I stole a joke thread from NIR and made it into my own is that I did NOT do that. What I DID do is detailed above.
As for this accusation:
"You could be a PIA-er trying to make NIR look bad for all we know."
I'll just repost a portion of the NIR rules of conduct and point out that NIR describes itself as
"...a forum to discuss theories & possibilities surrounding the PID/PWR mysteries. When this forum was established, it was decided that we should allow an open discussion from both sides of the story."
As I mentioned above, none of my posts (the original or any of my subsequent responses to comments) have indicated that my boxing theory comes from either the PID or the PWR perspective. In any event, a quick look at the NIR rules shows that either of those perspectives is welcome.
Please now, are we done?
P(D)enny
I think Jguildersleeve is trying to say you got the idea from the IAAP comment section of his channel.
"I think Jguildersleeve is trying to say you got the idea from the IAAP comment section of his channel."
Well, I've indicated, in great detail, where I got my theory from.
JGuildersleeve can either take it or leave it.
Any more debate about that point will become nothing more than a parody of the Monty Python Argument sketch, and nobody needs us to recreate that...
P(D)enny
I told ya ooan, i told ya chu...there´s only ooan clue
Phoney was, but now he is far from eh am ai...he lost HIS way
HE fav un
Mega I see
Dimas
I think Taful deleted the original thread on the Boxer thing, but, no matter, this idea that the Beatles were set up by Tavistock or NWO body as subversive agents is just plain goofy, because their lasting legacy is that they set a standard of songwriting excellence that no one will ever equal or surpass.
Yeah, 'coz no one is ALLOWED TO ANYMORE!!!!
Like Jesus, there's a sign on the BEATLES heads, that says, "DON'T EVER TRY THAT AGAIN!"
your pal,
Vince.
Tafultong did not delete anything. I reserve to do it if I need to, but I have never exercised that right. It is still there. I am on my way out to real life for a while, but I'll try to clarify a couple things when I get back so that we can move on.
Dimas, I hear what you are saying.
The pattern repeats itself endlessly. If you check out IAAPs comment page, or NIR threads, you'll see what I mean. A thread begins, usually prompted by some new or supposedly startling theory ("I know what LILY means!") and then the theory through free association evolves into yet another, and the original thread dries up after leading to nowhere. The many thousands of posts and theories and conjectures have all led to nothing. Does anyone honestly have any more reliable information on PID than was available in 1969? There are more supposed clues, yes, but that could obviously go on forever based on what we seen thus far.
Just some clarification. I did a post last week on "Document 3" and one of the comments was from someone who cleverly took the frequent references to "Boxers" in the Beatles collective and solo work, and (with tongue in cheek) suggested that Paul McCartney had a secret life as a boxer.
The comment was both funny and valid, but I remember at the time making a mental note that the boxer thing had crossed my mind previously.
Several days went by and P(D)enny who apparently never saw the comment here, made a post on NIR about the connection between the Beatles and Boxing (particularly the deception often associated with the sport of boxing).
That inspired me to write my post about Beatles and Boxing. For some reason, I had forgotten about the comment from last week. If I had remembered, I would still have published my post, but I might have thrown in a little joke. I'm sure the comment was in my head somewhere because I know I thought it was good when I read it.
My post was serious, but I have done pretty well in life by not taking myself too seriously.
So, no one can blame "anonymous" for seeing the humor in me half unknowingly writing a serious post that pretty much played into the hands of a sarcastic comment from the week previous.
You can find that original comment at the link below
Boxer Joke Comment.
See, pretty good!
I have taken no offense to any of the comments made. I am trying to study something. I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. I have respect for people on both sides of the issue and I find their perspectives helpful. That's why I welcome all kinds of comments. The only comments that have ever been deleted on this blog were done by the person who made them. Most of the time it appeared to be that they didn't realize that they were logged in and wanted to re-post anonymously. Recently, there was a deleted comment by someone who I think decided that they either didn't need or didn't want to go on the defensive. I respect that person for that.
I would suggest that people not take challenges to their ideas personally. Share your ideas and let them stand on their own. Truth does not care if it has the last word.
anonymous wrote:
Long before I was aware of most of the details connected to this inquiry, I would reply to younger people's questions about "The Sixties" by saying that there was a palpable and dark shift which began (for me) around the spring of '67. We all know how much had changed by the latter part of '69.
Exactly. The Beatles reflected that dark shift. The description in former Beatles recording engineer Geoff Emerick's book about the negative change in all of the Beatles' personalities when they returned from India after all of that meditation and enlightenment was shocking. He simply did not want to be around them anymore.
Is this a new IAAP recording? Voice sounds familiar.
"...that the Beatles were set up by Tavistock or NWO body as subversive agents is just plain goofy..."
Whoa there please. I actually said, 'employed as a social engineering fulcrum'. There is in that statement no implication of having been set up by Tavistock.
That assumption is akin to those who spin off into "Paul being the Zodiac" because someone posits a possible link between black-ops run serial killings of the era and the possible insertion of intel handlers into the Beatles circle.
If one makes the effort to discover what is actually in the historical record, things get plenty spooky without any goofy speculations required.
I am also very curious to know what Lennon may have attributed to Polanski.
Ditto whether Cielo Drive was or was not the location of the first intentional tripping by the lads.
~ km artlu
I suppose I should comment on this because the original boxing comment as everyone can plainly see was made by ME!!!!!!!!!!
Hello? Can't I get some credit for coming up with it? Yes it was a joke to show that with 40+ years or songs about everything under the sun that you could create patterns with nearly everything but as everyone knows it's really English football that shows up more regularly in Beatles lore.From cries of "block that kick" in Revolution #9 to Paul singing about "scoring goals for the other team" in We Got Married to "who won the match or scored the goal" in Somedays to the footballers in the Yellow Submarine movie to John Lennon appearing on Monday Night Football in 1974 to compare the NFL to English football.Have fun.
-Aja
And I forgot the biggest CLUE of them all.TWO Paul McCartneys play English football with each other in the Pipes Of Peace video.OH MY GOD!
This could go on forever with anything you want to insert into the mix.I could do "the Beatles are gay" next.Now I see why Iamaphoney has fun with this.
-Aja
Hey Aja,
I didn't identify you because you wrote that the original boxing joke was from "JGuildersleeve(?) and I" satirizing, but posted anonymously.
I thought that you were the one sparing with P(D)enny, but I figured you had a reason to be anonymous, so I left your name out of it.
Speaking of identity issues, it was JCharles who chimed in with the original boxing stuff. JGuildersleeve has left some comments here, but to my knowledge, he is not JCharles, unless JGuildersleeve is the catch all name for anyone who debunks conspiracy theories.
Speaking of identity crises, I need to post something quick about this new video that is controlling my mind.
"I didn't identify you because you wrote that the original boxing joke was from "JGuildersleeve(?) and I" satirizing, but posted anonymously."
No Tafultong that's not me and I never said that.I don't post anonymously.I always sign them.
-Aja
I mean I DO post anonymously because I don't have an account but I sign the messages.
-Aja
Aja,
Hmm. That makes it even more confusing. Do you have any idea why a person would say "JGuildersleeve and I were satirizing" when it was actually Aja and JCharles?
Maybe it was a straw man argument with real straw men...
I'll look into that soccer theory. You might have something there.
Tafultong,
I have no idea.I know who JCharles is from here but I don't know JGildersleeve.
This is irritating.
Now I have to decide whether I should open an account on Google and if it's that important that people don't confuse me with other people.I thought the signature would be enough.I hate signing up for things.You always have to promise them your firstborn...
-Aja
Me, too.
Vince.
Sorry Aja, I mistakenly called you JGuildersleeve regarding your boxing examples. I'm JohnCharles and I'm not JGuildersleeve, and in response to JCJL, my sole purpose is not to "debunk" PID.
Most of what I post is not to attack PID per se, but certain theories and approaches to PID that I believe are dubious in principle. Two people can believe in the same theory and yet still disagree on the evidence. This is because PID is no different than any other investigation in the history of human inquiry. There are certain logical fallacies that have been identified over the past three thousand years, and those fallacies aren't null and void based on the subject matter. Even if Paul did die, that doesn't mean all of the PID theories and clues were valid.
Just keeping it real. JCharles
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